Dana Gingras
Le 22 avril 2021, je me rendais dans ce magnifique studio de la Petite-Patrie à Montréal où je me suis entrainé et où j’ai dansé si souvent. C’est au studio Stable, que Dana a ouvert en catimini et qui a fait ses marques au fil des années dans la communauté de danse contemporaine à Montréal, qu’a eu lieu notre entretien. Je connais Dana depuis longtemps, depuis l’automne 2000 en fait. J’étais alors allée voir sa pièce Circa, qu’elle était venue danser à Montréal avec sa compagnie de l’époque, Holy Body Tattoo, et un ami commun nous a présenté au café de l’Usine C après le spectacle. Je garde un souvenir fort de cette rencontre : cette femme à la voix grave et au rire communicatif, danseuse à la présence et l’énergie incroyable, m’impressionnait par sa puissance et sa douceur à la fois. J’espérais que cette rencontre ne soit pas que celle d’un soir, mais j’étais loin de me douter que l’on deviendrait les amies que nous sommes devenues, que l’on travaillerait ensemble à de multiples reprises et que cette bête de scène danserait un jour pour moi (car oui, je crée des pièces de danse en plus des bijoux).
Dana est chorégraphe, interprète et enseignante. Son travail a été présenté un peu partout dans le monde. Avec sa compagnie, Animals of Distinction, elle crée des œuvres hybrides qui mêlent danse, musique, arts visuels et installation vidéo, en collaboration avec des artistes de renoms comme Jenny Holzer, Marie Brassard, Godspeed You ! Black Emperor, Fly Pan Am, United Visual Artists, pour n’en nommer que quelques uns. Pendant l’année de pandémie que l’on vient de traverser, elle a été plus occupée que jamais, lançant de multiples projets et embarquant avec elle plusieurs autres artistes d’ici et d’ailleurs.
On a donc tout naturellement parlé de création en temps de pandémie mais aussi de l’importance de rester curieux et ouvert dans la vie comme en art, de ce qu’implique vieillir en danse, de la force du collectif et des relations que l’on entretient. J’espère que ce qui suit vous permettra de mesurer à quel point cette artiste, cette femme, est un être d’exception.
Ce printemps, on peut découvrir sa série web Jump Cut, dont les trois premiers épisodes sont déjà en ligne. Elle travaille également à la création de sa prochaine pièce, Creation Destruction : une première mouture sera présentée début juillet dans un parc du Mile-End à Montréal. Planifiez- être dans les parages si vous le pouvez!
* Cette rencontre est publiée dans la langue dans laquelle elle a été réalisée, soit en anglais. Elle sera traduite un jour, lorsque les ressources nécessaires seront disponibles.
Entretien par Karine Denault
Photos par Justine Latour
Karine: We just went through a difficult and stressful year—and it’s not over!—and even in this context, you’ve managed to be super productive and super busy. More than usual, I’m tempted to say, if ever that is possible! [Laughs] How do you explain that and what did you learn?
Dana: [Laughs]… Hum… Well, when things shut down last year on March 13, 2020, we had just come back from a big tour of Frontera. The piece premiered in the fall and then we toured it, and I was really exhausted. So when things shut down and the world stopped for me, there was this deep sigh of relief. I knew the premiere of our next show was going to be postponed and basically everything was put on hold. In that space of hold, I went into a deep state of rest. After a month of just sleeping and recovering, new impulses for creativity arose. I’ve learnt that rest and not having to produce fuels my creativity.
Karine: Before the pandemic, you’d had a really intense year of creating, touring and teaching. It was constantly one thing after the next without any break!
Dana: Yes and my health definitively suffered because of that. The pressure of having to produce constantly is really challenging. So having all that pressure taken away all of a sudden, I felt that I could extend myself into my artistry in a different way—in a way I hadn’t felt since probably my early 20s. And it wasn’t like I was trying to make things happen out of the pandemic—they just arrived. That’s what I think is amazing!
Karine: I realized at some point that staying active and doing things was helping me handle the situation. It was reducing stress.
Dana: There was this amazing moment at the beginning where I felt change was possible. Obviously, things evolved and shifted quite rapidly. But there was this moment of promise at the beginning. When have we ever experienced everything coming to a full stop? Like a grinding halt in our lifetime? It was scary because we didn’t know what was going to happen, but at the same time, I was curious about what would come out of this moment of fallow. We’re always overstimulated and being pushed to produce and keep up with something—this invisible pressure coming from the outside. So not having to keep up with anything was like I could listen to my own heart beat again.
Karine: And go with your own rhythm… Even if in the end, your rhythm means being quite productive…
Dana: Yes, but it comes from a place of flow that is different. It’s not about willpower or pushing. It’s just actually a willingness to be observant and to be open. And at some point, I started to wonder how to connect with people that are in different parts of the world, how to meet different artists… Because that’s the great thing about touring, you’re always meeting people and making connections. And I was wondering how to do that without travelling. Maybe that’s part of our future, to travel less because of climate change. I’m trying to think about how we participate in climate actions and obviously, travel is something we have to address. And you know, we have the Internet, this portal we can travel through. Of course we all prefer when we can be together in person, but it’s also possible connect in other ways. And that’s when the idea of the digital series Jump Cut came.
“I don’t think I ever create in isolation. It’s always about the collaborators. […] For me the most important aspect of art making is making community.”
Karine: Something interesting for me regarding this project is that you are really trying to create art specifically for the web. It’s not a recording of a live show on the Internet. You even said at some point that it’s “pandemic art” and I really like this term, because it’s really what it is. You wouldn’t have come up with the idea otherwise, and even though you’ve worked with technology before, this is different.
Dana: Totally born out of the pandemic! It was really a way to create contact and thrive. And I love that for Jump Cut 2, Sabrina Ratté, Marie Davidson and I connected online and made art through digital technology. For the next episodes, I play a curatorial role that’s really fun, and I wouldn’t have done that without the pandemic. Jump Cut 3, for instance, is with Austin Young, a multimedia artist from Los Angeles. He’s working with these three pretty extraordinary drag queens with huge personalities. And I invited Peaches to compose the music. So the project is opening this whole other window into art making, and I love that even if it’s under the idea of dance, it kind of explodes open the definition of what dance can be. Because for me, if there is a moving body on the screen, and cameras and editing are involved, there is already choreography.
Karine: Yes, totally. You don’t have to do proper dance steps for it to be dance! [Laughs]
Dana: No! [Laughs] You don’t have to be dancing in a dance-y kind of way for it to be dance. I like the blurring of definitions because I’ve always felt… I guess like an imposter in the world of dance. Even though I make work that is very physical, sometimes I don’t feel like I fit in. Or in a similar way… I’m less interested in movement for the sake of movement, but more in what movement can serve or produce…
Karine: And by the energy it creates or by what the movement supports and what is supported by it…
Dana: Yes! Energy produces a resonance that you experience in your own body as a viewer. I guess a lot for me is about how it affects the viewer. And so with Jump Cut, this idea was not to film a live show, which feels like a disappointment when you watch because you immediately think, “Oh I wish I was there seeing it live!” I feel somehow it abandons the viewer.
Karine: Well, we don’t control what we are looking at. Someone else is deciding which point of view is important at a specific moment, and maybe we would have looked elsewhere. For me, this part of the problem… When I’m watching a live show on the Internet, I feel what I am lacking or missing. Of course, I’ve seen some that are beautifully filmed but other times, there is really something missing and it distracts me from the work the artist made.
Dana: I like that idea: that you experience the lack or what’s missing as opposed to feeling a connection with what’s being expressed… I guess with Jump Cut, the idea was to create an original piece of digital art. And eventually, my dream is that I could have all six episodes from 2021 be part of a gallery installation, or that they could be shown in a context where you could experience them in other ways.
Karine: And maybe see connections between all six episodes even if you yourself appear only in the first two. That’s the beauty of commission! I’m sure that the way you’ve chosen to put people together will influence the result.
Dana: I realize so much of creating is about the collaborations and how you bring people together to collaborate. I don’t think I ever create in isolation. It’s always about the collaborators. Whether it’s music or via technology or visual art or with the performers… And that’s kind of a curatorial experience, right?
Karine: Yes! Totally! We know when we are putting people together that something specific to that group will emerge. We don’t know exactly what, but we know it will create something influenced by everybody’s personality and aesthetic and way of thinking and…
Dana: Yes and I guess Jump Cut is an extension of that. And what’s really touching is how the artists that are participating have so much invested in this project. It’s really beautiful to experience. I’m really moved and touched by it, and it’s exciting to experience that!
Karine: Something that struck me soon in our friendship is how generous you are. How you are welcoming people in your world and in your space. There are multiple examples of that: giving studio time to people, inviting people for dinner, throwing parties, organizing events…
Dana: You’ve just reminded me our infamous 24 hours Endless Love party event where you and I were dancing together for 12 hours nonstop! [Laughs]
Karine: Yes! That was something! [Laughs] Somehow, I have the impression that the projects you did this year were possible because of your generosity. While many people had difficulties coping with the pandemic, you’ve managed to bring people together and give them the opportunity to create in a really exciting context! Same goes for the dancers in your next piece Creation Destruction: you wanted to be sure they had work, and that they weren’t left without any income and resources.
Dana: It’s community, right! For me the most important aspect of art making is making community. It’s a way of making and extending family. It’s really important that people want to be there. It’s not just another job. They’re participating because it feeds and nourishes their own sense of community.
Karine: I think the gesture is really remarkable because a lot of people felt a loss of meaning this year and wondered, “Where are we going? What’s this all about?” And you gave people around you a purpose. And this is also true with your teaching.
“Art is not static. It doesn’t have one definition. It changes. It’s reading evolves based on our collective experience.”
Dana: Actually, one of the highlights of the past year was to reach out to people through my Gyrokinesis classes on Zoom! You know, I didn’t even realize that for the past twenty years, I’ve been accumulating a community around the world from all the courses I’ve taught. When I opened up my classes on Zoom, it was amazing to teach to someone who lives across the street from me, or across town like you, or reaching out to people in Australia or Nepal or Mexico or Costa Rica… It felt so great to be able to bring this group of people together. All of us moving together felt like such a huge gesture of solidarity and interconnectivity. And to be able to have those classes be pay-what-you-can and then donating a portion of the proceeds to various women’s shelters… it all of a sudden gave a different purpose to my teaching.
Karine: There is sort of a full circle happening here of people helping others and in return helping other people…
Dana: Yeah… It’s the spiral you know [laughs]… the beautiful spiral of Gyrotonic. We are all interconnected. We are all part of this collective. And yes, collectively, we’ve been going through a huge amount of grief and isolation and loss, but we have to do our part somehow to feed the positive aspects. Because I also think that there is a real dark side to what’s going on through the media that’s producing all this fear in people…
Karine: And it’s very difficult not to be affected by it!
Dana: Yes exactly! I feel like the work is to keep trying to stay in the light and move towards the actions that are going to be positive and that will expand us. A beautiful evolution of Creation Destruction also happened. The piece would have premiered in July 2020 if the pandemic hadn’t occurred, but it would have been a completely different piece! I had to let go of so much material! Two years of research where all the dancers were touching each other and in contact all the time! The piece had to redefine itself. And I’ve realized that’s what the piece is about: the nature of life is change. It’s constant change, dissolution. Everything is unstable. We think things are stable and then the pandemic happened and we realized how unstable everything actually is. Or if you go through some kind of health crisis, you realize how unstable everything in your life is. The piece found its ground in a way through the pandemic. The idea of creation and destruction is a binary, but I’m actually interested in what goes on in between. Because of what we are living, the content of the piece is being altered—and that is what I love about art! Art is not static. It doesn’t have one definition. It changes. It’s reading evolves based on our collective experience.
Karine: Maybe if you were working on movement development or formal aspects of dance like space and time, you wouldn’t necessarily be affected by political or social contexts but that’s not your angle… Though I’m sure this year will affect everybody’s work! But since your angle is really to be in resonance with what is happening in society, what we are going through will inevitably influence your work. You wrote something I thought was really interesting: “The drive and desire to create at the heart of the performance as an act of resistance.” It’s interesting because I think that making art is in itself an act of resistance.
Dana: Yes for sure!
Karine: To make art is in a sense a refusal to conform and to lead a “normal” life. When we make art, there are certain aspects of society we refuse and question. And maybe we are questioning those aspects in our work or not, but we approach the world differently and we live differently.
Dana: There is a John Berger quote: “The pocket in question is a small pocket of resistance. A pocket is formed when two or more people come together in agreement. The resistance is against the inhumanity of the new world economic order.” It always struck me that’s what we are doing as artists: we are holding the space for a kind of resistance.
Karine: I think something beautiful came out of your creation process for Creation Destruction last summer. You’ve mostly rehearsed outdoors, no?
Dana: All the time actually! It was such an incredible process to be in the community every day like that! Because normally when we are in creation we are, as you know, in some kind of theatre, shut in the dark and we don’t see anyone. It’s no wonder people don’t understand contemporary dance! [Laughs] Last summer, we were sharing the space with martial artists, tap dancers, skaters, people getting stoned on the grass watching us and having some kind of trip, a person practicing the trumpet… We got to know the rhythm of the neighbourhood. Certain people walked by, others would walk through the middle of rehearsal and some engaged deeply with us… I just loved the porousness and how open it was! From now on, if I’m rehearsing in the summer, I want to find a way to be outside because it was so enlivening and rich!
Karine: It’s true. People don’t normally have access to dance in that way. They see a finished piece in a theatre and a conversation is rarely possible.
Dana: And the piece we’re creating doesn’t look like dance. Dancers are walking or running and doing very minimal gestures. It’s quite inspired by Yvonne Rainer and the late 1960-70s postmodernists’ work, so there is a lot of pedestrian movement. This is what the piece has evolved into actually: how do people move in a public space?
Karine: Oh that’s interesting! The fact that you worked in the park also influenced what the dancers were doing and how you directed them. So the porousness happened in both directions: from you and your team to people in the park and from people in the park to you and your team.
Dana: Yes, in both directions. And I think for the dancers too, it was a really invigorating process to be out in the world like that and to be able to be together. Before rehearsing outdoors, we did a couple of weeks of rehearsals on Zoom so we could check in with each other and discuss the project. We had a beautiful discussion around questions that Bruno Latour had posted on the pandemic: “What are the activities now suspended that you would like to see not resumed? Which of the now-suspended activities would you like to develop/resume or even create from scratch?” That conversation affected Creation Destruction as well because we were all living a similar experience. At that time, it was so touching to see everyone on the screen in their little Zoom boxes and feeling the separation between the screen and live presence. And this actually ended up informing the work we are doing with United Visual Artists, who are creating the video aspects for the performance. Again, it wouldn’t have happened that way without the circumstance of the pandemic. Seeing all these separate realities of everyone in their home brought into question this idea of the one and the many. It gave the creation a new direction. I feel that with making work, it’s often about getting out of the way of the creation and seeing where it wants to go.
Karine: Yes. It’s necessary to stay open for what it asks instead of imposing a direction from the start.
Dana: Exactly. When you start, you plant a seed and then reality shapes the work.
Karine: And when it’s a group work, everybody’s personality, energy, feelings, expectations are influencing what the work will become.
Dana: That’s the collective fabric. There is a great Donna Haraway quote about how all our actions are intertwined and create this knot of motion. And sometimes we have to untangle the knot. We are planning to perform the piece outside in the heart of the Mile-End and to create a documentary: a sort of “making of” about what it has been like to create work through the pandemic. But not knowing if we are going to be shut down again is not easy. There are a lot of people involved and there is a lot to organize. We have twelve dancers!
“I really had to ask myself “Who are you trying to please?” […] And now I make art because it feeds my soul, it feeds my heart.”
Karine: I have a delicate question. Well for me, it’s a delicate subject… How is it for you to age in dance?
Dana: Ahhh!
Karine: I’m asking that question because obviously we are…
Dana: Older! [Laughs]
Karine: … not young anymore… [Laughs]… And also, because it’s one of the many reasons why I eventually needed to add new abilities and skills to my artistic practice. Youth and energy are celebrated in dance and novelty gets most of the attention. And at some point, past the age of 40, some opportunities are not available anymore because they are for emerging artists and you are not emerging anymore, yet you are still in an unstable position…
Dana: Yeah, it’s the funniest thing! When you are young you get all this attention, you get this momentum and you think: that’s the way it’s going to be. And then you hit a kind of… I’d stay it starts around mid to late 30s, where you’re all of a sudden in a different place. You are mid-career and mid-career is fucking hard! Not hard for the obvious reason that physically, you don’t feel like throwing your body around anymore. It’s hard because we live in a culture that always wants novelty. So if you’re not producing novelty, you become invisible a bit, right? You become noise in the background. But the thing is that you stay in mid-career for most of your career. And it’s probably not until you get to maybe 65 and up and then, if you’ve actually survived that long—because I think being an artist is a bit of an endurance test—you’re kind of past a threshold, and hopefully there is a recognition around the body of work you’ve accumulated. But that only comes once you’ve endured decades of being a mid-career artist! I remember my early 40s was a really challenging time because nothing prepared me to understand mid-career. I had just moved to Montréal, and my previous company, Holy Body Tattoo, which I had formed in 1992, was dissolving. I was in a new phase, I was in a new relationship. Everything was new! It was very uncomfortable but also very exciting for other reasons. But now I get it! Ten years later, I’m still in mid-career but now I create for very different reasons and work for very different outcomes. I feel like about seven years ago, I made peace with myself and I really make art for my own pleasure now.
Karine: It’s your first impulse?
Dana: Yes! I really had to ask myself “Who are you trying to please? Who’s this internal ideal that you are trying to please?” Also, there is always this external pressure of trying to please presenters and funders…
Karine: To be able to continue to make work hein… it’s not very complicated, but it’s also a trap!
Dana: Yes and it’s unsustainable because you cannot please everyone all the time! So I make art because it feeds my soul, it feeds my heart. And again, the community and the process of art making is what is important and nourishing. And when I shifted this paradigm for myself—because it really felt like a paradigm shift—“I’m going to amuse myself, I’m going to follow my whims” then I was like “OK, awesome! Here I am.” So I’m OK with aging as an artist and aging as a dancer. And for the physical aspect of it, I feel I haven’t stopped trying to learn new things physically. My Gyrotonic practice has fed me for the last twenty years and now I’m in a medical Qi Gong program. And as a performer, well hopefully I’ll always have some kind of presence to offer. And through presence, there is a way of being in space and time with awareness that comes with experience. In my early years of dancing, I was throwing myself against walls and off the floor. It was art through catharsis, and I don’t feel that need anymore. I’m not sublimating unfulfilled energies anymore. It’s much more generative, it’s much more positive on some level. It’s not so nihilistic, I guess.
Karine: [Laughs]
Dana: I think with time and age there is a kind of gravity that is literally embodied in your bones. It’s like you arrive home. You just accept, “OK this is actually who I am. These are my limitations, these are my strengths.” And you’re hopefully trying to make peace with them. Otherwise, it’s a miserable life! [Laughs] And I’m not saying that when you get older, there isn’t a possibility of change…
Karine: It’s always possible to transform and do new things… It comes with curiosity I think. You said that aging makes you search less for explosion and catharsis… that you are somehow more at peace. This makes me think that in most of the work you’ve done, there is an apocalyptic and chaotic energy. It’s really powerful and full of despair, and also full of hope as well. How does aging affect the way you work?
Dana: When I’m making a group piece, I’m still interested in the edges and by how far something can be pushed. Those edges are interesting to me because they are full of risk. I’m curious about other ways of finding those edges and where risk lies when you are not going into that kind of chaos. But the edges are where it’s really alive, where there is an uncertainty or risk or discomfort that I’m always curious about. I don’t think that will go away. I’m not interested in expressing it in such a physically violent way as before. I think I needed to do that for my body. [Laughs] I needed to be in touch with my “animal nature” and growing up at the time that I did, when women were expected to be a certain way and look a certain way and behave a certain way in the world of dance… I really wanted to push and rebel against that. Especially since I was coming out of the punk scene in the late 70’s early 80’s—I got into it really young! It influenced me of course!
Karine: And even if we didn’t grow up during the same period, you trained—like me—in dance techniques that have beautiful gestures like Graham and Limón or ballet… For me it was important to explore and propose something different in terms of what dance can be and what the dancing body can do.
Dana: Yes! I was interested in dancing in my teens, but I knew I was never going to be the princess that was going to be rescued. [Laughs] I was not a fragile creature! I was much more athletic, so trying to find an outlet where I could express myself with all the energy and the music that inspired me was really important. I wanted to push beyond myself.
“I think with time and age there is a kind of gravity that is literally embodied in your bones. It’s like you arrive home.”
Karine: Who are the women artists that inspire you? Present, past, here or elsewhere. Women artists whose work resonates for you?
Dana: At the top of my head, I would say Cindy Sherman. She has always been some kind of influence for me. I love that she creates these worlds, these universes. And she uses her body to do that so she’s always been a point of reference. There is something about the irreverence of Sarah Lucas also. I just love reading her interviews and reading about her process. She reminds me to stay true to who I am and maintain a kind of humour in my work… Maya Deren as well, an experimental film-maker. From a young age, I was always drawn to her. Not that my work resembles her work or any of these artists’ work, but there is something about her energy and presence. Claire Denis as a woman and film director. I love her approach and how she takes risks and plays in a more ambiguous space. And Meg Stuart as a choreographer of course! I’m always inspired by her nuanced approached to the body. I love how she works through those ghostly unseen and un-communicable presences. I’ve seen her work in different environments where it’s been wildly successful and in theatres where half of the audience has walked out!
Karine: They leave before the end of the show! Yes me too!
Dana: And I’m just “Wow!” It gives me so much encouragement in terms of risk taking!
Karine: I wasn’t making a point before to read books written by women or to watch films made by women. And some of the choreographies I’ve made referenced major artworks, mostly created by men. Of course, men have always had many more opportunities to show their work and gain recognition. Art history is written around these big artists figures. But I was a bit shocked when I realized this, because I really stand now in a feminist position and I make a point to seek out work by women.
Dana: It’s interesting because recently I’ve been reading about Georgia O’Keefe, Louise Bourgeois and Hilma af Klint, and reading about the struggles that they had as women made me realize that we stand on their shoulders.
Karine: Yes totally!
Dana: Thinking about the women in my family lineage, no one was an artist and the struggles these women went through just to have any agency was huge! I think my wildness really comes out of that repression and lack of sovereignty. I had to express myself even if it was in a completely unacceptable way! I get to do this because of the time that I live in and they actually sacrificed so much.
Karine: Do you ever wonder how to stay relevant through time and from work to work?
Dana: I don’t know how much you can control relevance… because there are trends and things shift so quickly. I think that staying connected or present with how things are shifting and staying sensitive with how things are changing is a way of maintaining relevance. But whether or not people will find your work relevant?
Karine: Of course we don’t have control over that. But I know a lot of artists are asking themselves questions about relevance. Maybe because of that system of production we were talking about earlier where if we want to stay in the loop, we have to continue to make work at a certain pace.
Dana: I always had this secret pact with myself. That if I don’t really feel passionate about my ideas or what I’m creating, then I’m not going to create. So I’m hoping that whatever my inspiration is, it’s somehow tapped into aspects of the collective and therefore is relevant on some level. I don’t ever want to have to push an idea out because I’m caught in a system of production! Hopefully at this age, it’s not a narcissistic hole that you are feeding. It’s too hard what we do. Art making is hard! It takes resources on all levels, not just financial—it also takes guts. It takes so much that you can’t just be doing this as some kind of vanity project because you are not going to survive! [Laughs] That’s why I have a teaching practice. It gives me the freedom to make choices as an artist about what I want to do.
Karine: [Laughs] What are you most proud of? In any aspects of your life?
Dana: I think as an overall in my life, I’m the most proud of the relationships I have: friendships, love, family, work relationships. Nurturing those, maintaining those and growing those through all sorts of times, easy or hard, and being able to maintain them over decades. It’s something that in my heart I feel proud of. Also I think getting to a place as an artist where I’m trying to embody and own the years of work that I’ve done. Not that easy… But you know it’s not like one show in one particular place makes or breaks your life!
Karine: No and your answer is so in line with what I said earlier regarding your generosity. The fact that what you are the most proud of are your friendships and the connections you’ve grown through the years, it’s totally in sync with that.
Dana: I feel like my body carries all these experiences of giving and receiving and this is what I get to become over time. I am who I am through those relations.
Karine: And how do you perceive yourself? Or how would you define yourself?
Dana: Hum… [Hesitation]… I would like to think of myself as a generator. Whether it’s a generator of ideas, energy, possibility, opportunity, connections. I think that’s how I would like to perceive myself. Like a generator, a connector.
Karine: I think you are one!
Pour découvrir et suivre le travail de Dana Gingras
Voici son site web et ses comptes Instagram et Facebook
Entretien réalisé par Karine Denault en avril 2021
Révision par Marie Claire Forté
Photos par Justine Latour
Dana porte les bijoux de la collection Esquive
publié le 22 mai 2021